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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:20 pm
Posts: 150
Location: Barrie Ontario Canada
I got into a discussion the other day about giving the second shot of epi if reaction comes back after the first dose. The person I was talking to said that the first shot would stop the reaction and if you gave a second shot it would stop your heart. She said that if you were going to be close enough to a hospital it is fine to give another dose but most likely it would kill you if the drs couldn't restart your heart. I didn't really believe this but I thought I would ask if anyone else has heard this. I don't really understand why it would be suggested for us to carry a back up for returning reactions if this would happen? :scratchy I have a feeling this person doesn't fully understand allergies and anaphylaxis so I doubt this is right especially since we have been told that it's better to give the epi than not since it will not hurt you.


Edit to add:

Found this on http://www.epipen.com/about-epipen/faqs
Quote:
More than two doses of EpiPen Auto-Injector should only be administered under direct medical supervision. Make sure you speak with your health care professional about how to identify the signs and symptoms of an allergic emergency. If you, your child or someone you're caring for shows signs or symptoms of an allergic emergency inject the health care professional-prescribed EpiPen or EpiPen Jr. immediately, then promptly call 911 and seek immediate medical attention. Take the used EpiPen Auto-Injector with you to the emergency room.


May have answered my own question....

_________________
Sarah
Outgrew: Wheat, corn, egg, chicken, to name a few
Sensitive to Milk/Dairy products
Allergic to: Tree nuts, percocet, toradol, environmental allergies and chemical allergies
Migraines caused by scented products, barometric pressure


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2034
Location: ottawa
The second does WILL NOT stop your heart....not giving the second dose might though. That is why we are all told to carry two epipens, many times a second does is needed and it WILL NOT hurt you.....but a reaction, THAT can kill you! The EPIPEN quote below states that 20% of people require a second does of epinephrine.
Hopefully if a reaction is so bad it requires a second does of epinephrine a person is already under the care of paramedics or in a hospital setting.

I don't use the word hate normally but I really HATE (not the person) but when they preach incorrect, or distorted medical advice. Why do those who know the least talk the loudest and push their opinions the most. :banghead

From EPIPEN:

Quote:
Although most patients experiencing anaphylaxis respond promptly to epinephrine injections, up to 20% of patients require a second dose of epinephrine either due to persistent symptoms or a biphasic reaction (See ‘the continuum of anaphylaxis’ section).3 For this reason it is important that patients at risk for anaphylaxis carry two doses of epinephrine.3,8 Additional criteria potentially warranting a second dose of epinephrine include co-morbid diseases such as asthma, food-induced anaphylaxis, rapid symptom progression, or living in a remote area approximately >10-15 minutes from a health care facility.9-11

It is important to communicate to your patients that if they, their child or someone they’re caring for shows signs or symptoms of an anaphylactic reaction, inject the prescribed EpiPen or EpiPen Jr. Auto-Injector immediately, then promptly call 911 and seek immediate medical attention.3,7

_________________
DD 12 yrs -no allergies
4 yr old DS - asthma/eczema Anaphylactic to Peanuts, all tree nuts, sesame , all pea/lentil legumes, gelatin.
Allergic to trees, grass,ragweed, feathers, dander, mold and dust.
Outgrew eggs, fish, shellfish


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:35 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:00 am
Posts: 1115
The saddest part is that I've learned all of this life-saving information HERE. Not from the doctors. Not everyone seeks out this information...

My daughter has a friend with allergies to tree nuts and peanuts and they compare how their moms deal with the allergies. Apparently I know a lot more because of all of the reading that I do --- it used to bug my daughter that I read so much about it until I explained that I now use that information to help others new to allergies here or on Facebook groups for parents of kids with allergies :huggy

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me: allergic to crustaceans plus environmental
teenager: allergic to hazelnuts, some other foods and environmental


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2034
Location: ottawa
Quote:
The saddest part is that I've learned all of this life-saving information HERE. Not from the doctors. Not everyone seeks out this information...

That is so true Walooet. And some facts I have learned from our dr. were not initially told to me until after the fact. DS's first life threatening asthma attack where things became very dire en-route in our car (in an isolated stretch of road where we could get to the hospital faster than - at this point -stopping in the dark waiting for an ambulance). Later that week our dr. told us that if ever in a similar situation to use the epipen. It hadn't even occurred to me to use the epi or that I could . Again, great I know now....could have used the info. earlier though. Our dr's have all been amazing and I know that they can't think of everything to tell us.
What I do know is that when I find information I really try to ensure the source is reputable (our dr's or Allergic Living etc.) and that it is fact based and not 'opinion' such as the woman arguing with Sarah.

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DD 12 yrs -no allergies
4 yr old DS - asthma/eczema Anaphylactic to Peanuts, all tree nuts, sesame , all pea/lentil legumes, gelatin.
Allergic to trees, grass,ragweed, feathers, dander, mold and dust.
Outgrew eggs, fish, shellfish


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:20 pm
Posts: 150
Location: Barrie Ontario Canada
Thank you all for your replies. This women was so adamant of her argument that I started to believe her at the time but I also know this person tends to pick arguments just to do so and always thinks she is right. I gave up arguing and stopped talking. I will just have to remember never to eat her food or rely on her help in an emergency since she told me she would never give someone else their epipen and wouldn't adjust her meal to suit someone's allergies! This person works for a private airline and flies famous hockey players, musicians, and diplomats! I asked her what she would do if she had an allergic client and she stated she would refuse to fly them and if she had to fly them would tell them to bring their own food! I thought that was very funny since these people pay a ridiculous amount of money to fly with her company!!! You could say this was a very interesting dinner out.

Quote:
What I do know is that when I find information I really try to ensure the source is reputable (our dr's or Allergic Living etc.) and that it is fact based and not 'opinion'


That is why I came straight here and searched the allergy sites I have come to rely on to see if she was right! I knew someone on here would know and I trust everyone here more than someone who has never dealt with allergies.

_________________
Sarah
Outgrew: Wheat, corn, egg, chicken, to name a few
Sensitive to Milk/Dairy products
Allergic to: Tree nuts, percocet, toradol, environmental allergies and chemical allergies
Migraines caused by scented products, barometric pressure


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:17 pm
Posts: 6429
Location: Ottawa
When people are adamant, ask them to tell you their source. If they can't remember discount it!
The ammount of epinephrine in an epipen is enought to work on a 250lb man. We give this same ammount to a 67lb child. You can't tell me that a child can handle such a mega dose (4x) but a double dose would stop the heart of an adult. :banghead

FYI-You call 911 after you've administered the epipen (or twinject or whatever auto-injector you use) not because the medicine is dangerous. You call 911 because anaphylaxis can be fatal and you might need more medical intervention.

I've also heard that an auto-injector can afford you approx 15-20 minutes. If the ambulance is not there in that time, the reaction might start to return and you might need a second dose. If you need a third or fourth dose...your reaction is majorly severe and you need waaay more than an auto-injector... :frightened

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Daughter: asthma, allergies to egg, milk, peanuts, tree nuts, most legumes (not soy) & penicillin. Developing hayfever type allergies.
Husband: no allergies
Me: allergies to some tree that flowers in May
Cat: allergic to beef, pork and lamb


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2034
Location: ottawa
Quote:
I gave up arguing and stopped talking. I will just have to remember never to eat her food or rely on her help in an emergency
Well said. My gosh she seems to be quite the women. I have a feeling no matter the issue she has strong opinions , all very biased and jaded and non of which have any factual merit.

It is easy for all of us to start questioning information as when people SWEAR they know something it really does make you start to second guess what you already believed to be true.
(I also bet she super sucks up to her clients no matter what she says to you) :mrgreen:

_________________
DD 12 yrs -no allergies
4 yr old DS - asthma/eczema Anaphylactic to Peanuts, all tree nuts, sesame , all pea/lentil legumes, gelatin.
Allergic to trees, grass,ragweed, feathers, dander, mold and dust.
Outgrew eggs, fish, shellfish


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:00 am
Posts: 1115
Sarah388 wrote:
... This women was so adamant of her argument that I started to believe her at the time but I also know this person tends to pick arguments just to do so and always thinks she is right. I gave up arguing and stopped talking. ...


You may have just met my sister-in-law... :rofl (she has tried to dispute my height and shoe size and many other things... just yesterday told my daughter she couldn't be writing high school exams this week since those are written in December... Needless to say I let most of what she says go in one ear and directly out the other while I feign interest.)

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me: allergic to crustaceans plus environmental
teenager: allergic to hazelnuts, some other foods and environmental


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:48 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2034
Location: ottawa
:rofl
Quote:
she has tried to dispute my height and shoe size and many other thing


No, I think Sarah met a few people from my family, worse, maybe family in now in cahoots with your family.....no one will ever win an argument again. That makes me laugh Walooet as those are the exact types of things I have certain people argue with me about, things that without a doubt I 100% know are true yet they yet there is no telling them they are wrong (like when in our school district the last day of school was before x-mas holidays).

Sarah :huggy , I probably would have started to second guess myself also if someone was so adamant they were right. You know in the movies the rich person always hits the button and that window goes up blocking the backseat from the driver.... I pretend I have one in my brain.....I have hit the button (window rising, rising, rising window locked). :

_________________
DD 12 yrs -no allergies
4 yr old DS - asthma/eczema Anaphylactic to Peanuts, all tree nuts, sesame , all pea/lentil legumes, gelatin.
Allergic to trees, grass,ragweed, feathers, dander, mold and dust.
Outgrew eggs, fish, shellfish


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:17 pm
Posts: 6429
Location: Ottawa
I usually assume that they have had some sort of brain injury in the past, minor stroke or concussion. I simply assume they have a speech afect that makes them sound like that or that they have lost their ability to judge what's appropriate.

Treat her like you would a small child who is taking 2 hours to describe a 30 minute tv show. :roll:

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Moderator
Daughter: asthma, allergies to egg, milk, peanuts, tree nuts, most legumes (not soy) & penicillin. Developing hayfever type allergies.
Husband: no allergies
Me: allergies to some tree that flowers in May
Cat: allergic to beef, pork and lamb


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:21 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:00 am
Posts: 1115
BC2007 wrote:
Sarah :huggy , I probably would have started to second guess myself also if someone was so adamant they were right. You know in the movies the rich person always hits the button and that window goes up blocking the backseat from the driver.... I pretend I have one in my brain.....I have hit the button (window rising, rising, rising window locked). :


:thanksign for the marvellous idea of the Limo window!

It is true that people like that who are adamant they are right really do make us second guess ourselves. My husband has a line he uses that means he thinks you are lying: "I find that hard to believe." and then he walks away or changes topic. It works surprisingly well --- didn't know what it meant for the first 19 years :huggy

I appreciate the links that bc and Susan provided as well because my daughter only carries one dose with her around the city but typically she is at school or I am with her which means a second dose is nearby. I MUST teach her to take two epis if not with me or at the school. Sometimes that second epi-pen is needed simply as backup as the tragic story of Tyler Davis shows:
He was carrying an EpiPen and tried to use it, but the needle bent and he was unable to inject the medicine in time.
http://www.universitybusiness.com/artic ... d-can-kill

_________________
me: allergic to crustaceans plus environmental
teenager: allergic to hazelnuts, some other foods and environmental


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:50 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:20 pm
Posts: 150
Location: Barrie Ontario Canada
walooet, Susan, and BC :rofl That is so true!! I think all families have at least one!! I'm not even going to go into family!

She probably does suck up to her clients. I can't see her saying no to any of these rich people because they have allergies. She would probably be sued :rofl

Quote:
movies the rich person always hits the button and that window goes up blocking the backseat from the driver.... I pretend I have one in my brain.....I have hit the button (window rising, rising, rising window locked). :


I'm going to have to remember that one!

Quote:
I find that hard to believe.


Tried that and she continued to argue even though I changed the topic. She said a friend of hers is allergic to some hormone he produces at random and he has to use his epipen what that happens and the doctor told him to be careful using the second one unless he was going to be at a hospital soon. (Is it possible to be allergic to hormones your body produces :scratchy )

_________________
Sarah
Outgrew: Wheat, corn, egg, chicken, to name a few
Sensitive to Milk/Dairy products
Allergic to: Tree nuts, percocet, toradol, environmental allergies and chemical allergies
Migraines caused by scented products, barometric pressure


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:25 am 
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Site Admin

Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:17 pm
Posts: 6429
Location: Ottawa
Epinephrine is adrenaline. It's a naturally occuring hormone.

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Moderator
Daughter: asthma, allergies to egg, milk, peanuts, tree nuts, most legumes (not soy) & penicillin. Developing hayfever type allergies.
Husband: no allergies
Me: allergies to some tree that flowers in May
Cat: allergic to beef, pork and lamb


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